19. A Voice for Dogs in Ireland

HOST (Voiceover): Hello, and welcome back to the Animal Friendly podcast.

Today I’m talking to Zara from Dog Advocacy Ireland about how and why Ireland has attained the shameful title of Puppy Farm capitol of Europe.

Dog Advocacy Ireland are a dedicated group who advocate for a major improvement in the standards of dog welfare in this country.

They want to bring about change in 3 key areas: Number One: puppy farms or puppy factories as they’re also called; Number Two, responsible dog ownership and Number Three: incentivised neutering.

We talked about each of these as well as the terrible strain that years of excessive dog-breeding is now imposing on the animal rescue groups around the country, who are desperately trying to cope with this deluge of dogs.

So, let’s hear from Zara…

ZARA: Thanks a million for the opportunity.

HOST: You're very welcome because this...I'm really interested in this topic and for years, this kind of thing has been needed because the rescue organisations, you know, they wanted to do this, but none of them have the time or, they're focused on rescuing.

ZARA: They're on the ground, they're at the frontline of the crisis. 

HOST: So what you need is a separate group, exactly what you guys are doing. So let's start with some of the questions and do tell me, what is Dog Advocacy Ireland and what do you guys do?

ZARA: So, exactly like you say, Dog Advocacy Ireland was set up by, I'll call him my colleague, John - ahm we're both volunteers obviously - he set up DAI because, primarily to focus on the puppy farm issue because he...after watching the Panorama documentary in 2018 he was just absolutely horrified by what was going on. And, like, that was 2018 so, what? 6 years ago, and since then - like, when one of the biggest puppy farms in Ireland was exposed, nothing's really changed. There was like, the usual kind of palavar afterwards - oh, we're going to do this and we're going to do that, but nothing's changed and if anything it's worse now than ever. Because, like, I think, you know, you've all the people that are watching that documentary going, oh God, this is awful, but you've other people going, ooh, this is a bit of a, you know, this could potentially be quite lucrative. So unfortunately, one of the sides of that was a lot of people could see how, oh right, you can actually get into puppy farming and it's not, like, it's quite profitable. So...because there's been an explosion since then. Like it hasn't got better, it's got even worse. And I think because our legislation is quite weak and not enforced that there is countries around the world - Singapore is a huge market for Irish puppies apparently - and because their laws are really strict, they'll import dogs from Ireland. And that's why we've become puppy farm capital of Europe, because all these other countries have much stricter laws than we do.

So to get back to actually what the question was, we, John set it up off the back of that, he set up DAI for that reason, because the boots on the ground, the rescue people are too busy to be looking after the advocacy side. So he kind of set it up on his own and he got another guy on board to do the website. And he's like a one man PR machine. He's just been...he's constantly on the phone, ringing different people, media organisations and political people to try and get some sort of recognition and change things. And then I heard of him, January last year, and I just went, oh, dja know...I was involved in rescue about 12 years ago and I kind of got out of it, because I think most people get burnt out and they have to kind of take a big step back. Ahm, but I'd always been madly passionate about dogs and rescue and, once you get into it once, it's kind of something that stays with you? So I kind of feel, it's kind of like the mafia, you know, once you're out, I've just been pulled back in. It's a good mafia though, we do good things [laughing]. So ya, I kind of heard about John and I work in media myself and I was thinking I wonder is there anything we can do. Like, my CEO at the time was a huge animal lover and I was thinking I wonder if there's anything we can do from a media point of view for this guy. So I rang him and we had a chat and it's funny because he asked me to be on the committee and I said, no, definitely not, I just have no time. And now it's ended up, it's pretty much me, John and the guy who does the website. And then we have actually engaged with a lobbyist who's helping us and also we were approached by a legal firm who are also helping us and that kind of thing. So we've a nice team of people who are kind of helping us but really it's just myself and John; and John hasn't been...he's been quite sick over the last, kind of, six months, so he hasn't been able to do a whole lot, so it's kind of all, at the moment, it's just me. I'm desperate to get more people to help. I do also have a PR company who do some stuff with us, they try and get us some media coverage around different things, so I was able to get an interview on Ireland AM, to showcase stuff around that as well, which was great, so ya, that's pretty much it.

HOST (Voiceover): One of DAI’s objectives is to get a cap put on the number of breeding female dogs allowed in an establishment. I speculated about the profits being generated when there’s no limit on the amounts of dogs you can own but Zara pointed out that it’s the terrible conditions in which these dogs are kept that is the real concern.

ZARA: Well, it's the outrageous profits but it's the outrageous abuse that goes along with it. You know? For...like, if you think about it, like, I was listening to Conor Dowling from the ISPCA did a really good podcast on the Irish Times there before Christmas, it was brilliant, and he was saying I think, the biggest number, the biggest registered puppy farm in Ireland has 300 breeding bitches but that's not to say there's one that's not registered that has more. Like, if you think about it, if you have 300 breeding bitches, and they have an average of 6 puppies in a litter, and each pup goes for about 800 to 1,000, that's huge money. Like, is that all being accounted for, from a revenue point of view? There's also another issue where, you know, where's the waste from all of these dogs and puppies going? You know? No-one's talking about that? But that's a really big, potentially huge issue. Like, where's it going? And you know, how's that being looked after? And that's something that no one's really talking about. Like, who knows how many breeding dogs there is around Ireland and how much waste is being created off the back of that and what's being done with it?

HOST: That's something I never actually thought about and I visited LAW and she brought me to the area and she said this is where all the waste goes and I was like, omg, I never even thought about that.

ZARA: Ya, like I've three dogs and I can see how much waste is created by 3, like, so Jesus, I can't even imagine a breeding...with 300 dogs plus puppies, you just can't even get your head around the idea of it. So ya, the cap, we initially were saying like a cap of 10, because they introduced that in Victoria in Australia and it's been hugely successful, but we've been talking to more people since and they're like, you're never going to get a cap of 10. You know, you have to go for something that's kind of realistic. So now we're looking like probably more at a cap of 30. And currently they say, one person to every 5 dogs is sufficient, sorry, one person to every 25 dogs is sufficient and that's absolutely not sufficient. Like a breeding mother has a lot more needs than you know, a normal dog that's not pregnant and they're saying one person to every 25. And there's no way there is one to every 25 anyway. So that has to change. Coz there's just no way they're all being looked after properly. We were saying we wanted 1 person to every 5 dogs and we think that's realistic, in terms of the dog's welfare standards being met.

HOST: This is one of the major problems is that, the dogs and the puppies, they're just getting terrible treatment, not to mind straight out abuse but, like, neglect and…

ZARA: Neglect. Like, neglect is a form of abuse. I mean, if...all of the legislation is based around the 5 freedoms and most of these dogs aren't being… none of those needs are being met. Like, they're in breach of all of those needs.

HOST (Voiceover): Just to quickly review the five freedoms that she’s talking about, they are

1. Freedom from hunger and thirst
2. Freedom from discomfort
3. Freedom from pain, injury or disease
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour
5. Freedom from fear and distress

And certainly if you watch any expose documentaries you can see straight away that a typical puppy farm doesn’t even come close to meeting any of those requirements.

ZARA: If you go to any puppy farm, which, you know, nobody does because they're obviously hard to get into, they protect them. But I mean, any of these, kind of...like the one down in Cork there last January, in Doneraile. They removed 264 dogs out of that premises and none of those were, like, she was in complete breach of all of the guidelines. And this is the other problem, the legislation. It not...it's guidelines. It's not like you have to do this, or else. It's like, we're recommending that you do this, we recommend that you have 1 person to every 25 dogs, but there's no real consequence. Unless you're found to be, literally, in a situation like her, there isn't really any consequences. Like, if you think of it from, like, this is what I just can't understand how we're okay with certain things from a cruelty point of view. If a man or a woman or anyone abused 264 people, it's like that number is absolutely massive. But because it's dogs, it's like…

HOST: I read that on your website, what you just said there. Oh yeah, dog breeding establishment, current guidelines are not mandatory and there are no consequences for non-compliance. And I had to go back over that, I was like, what? what? What is that?

ZARA: Can that be? How can that be? It's nuts.

HOST (Voiceover): The case that Zara mentioned was a dog breeding facility that was issued a closure notice following an inspection by council vets. Dogs had been confined to inadequate sized kennels; they were crowded, they were being kept without bedding or heating in sub-zero conditions with water dispensers that had frozen over. Many were displaying ‘abnormal behaviour’ including repetitive behaviour and eating faeces. And do bear in mind that this was a legal registered Dog Breeding Establishment. 

One of the main problems with trying to regulate dog breeding in this country is that it falls under different departments and different areas of legislation, as Conor Dowling of the ISPCA explained in the Irish Times podcast that Zara mentioned earlier.

CONOR DOWLING SOUND CLIP: Well, our inspectors are authorised under the Animal Health and Welfare Act, but that comes under the Department of Agriculture. There is also the Dog Breeding Establishments Act, which comes under the Department of Rural and Community Development and is enforced by the local authorities. {There’s a lot of stake-holders in this, then. This is what I’m hearing.} Yeah, it’s a confused picture. So, yes, we can get involved in Dog Breeding Establishments or puppy farms, if there are offences under the Animal Health and Welfare Act. We could certainly look to prosecute for those. Initially, the responsibility falls to the local authority. So this does create a confused picture and it’s something that we would like to like to see changed. We think that dog-breeding should come under the Animal Health and Welfare Act. We’d like to see a total revamp of the legislation that’s currently in place and a transfer of responsibility.

HOST (Voiceover): Zara explained how this problem with the legislation means that no one department has full responsibility for all these dogs.

 ZARA: So, yeah, there is two pieces of legislation. But one is legislation and it is based around the 5 freedoms, but then the other one is just guidelines around Dog Breeding Establishments. So you have the Animal Health and Welfare Act and then you have the Dog Breeding Establishments Act. The problem is that there's two pieces of legislation. Neither of them are really fit for purpose. Neither are properly enforced on a large scale and they're completely open to abuse.

HOST: They're under different departments as well, aren't they?

ZARA: Three different departments so nobody's actually properly looking after it. What we'd like to see is...now look there's so many dogs in Ireland at the moment, so many dogs...and it used to be a case maybe I don't know, 5 years ago, if you wanted a designer breed, you have to go to a breeder, because it was, you just wouldn't find that many kind of designer breeds in rescue. But now, like, because people are breeding dogs and they're not being sold, they're getting offloaded to rescues. So you're getting these like, perfectly... I wouldn't say perfectly bred because they're probably not vaccinated and all the rest until the rescue gets hold of them - but they are offloaded and they're unwanted stock, to rescues. So there's no reason for anyone to buy a dog in Ireland at the moment because rescues all over the country have every single breed imaginable. There's a common misconception out there that these dogs have issues, that they can't be homed with kids. That is not the case at all. Like, you'll always find a dog that does suit kids. There's plenty that don't but there's plenty that do. And if you just take your time you will find, you will absolutely find the breed that's right for your family. I went off on a tangent there, what was the original question?

HOST: It's okay. I guess we were talking about regulations and how there's different...two different...

ZARA: Oh, yes, that's why I went off on that tangent. So, while we don't encourage anyone to ever buy a dog, if people do decide that they want a dog from a breeder, we want to create a situation where there is a centralised database. You can go on to that database and see, oh, I'm after finding Kathleen online there, she's in Wicklow, so okay, go into Kathleen's name; oh, here's her dog-breeding establishment; oh, I can see the last 3 inspections; oh right, she sounds good. You know, she's been properly inspected by the department - we think there should be one department. There's so many dogs being bred in Ireland now. I can't understand how...if all these dog breeding establishments are paying the proper tax, that would fund the people to properly inspect the premises. Like at the moment, there's differentials between the different councils based on inspections as well. Like there's Dept of Agriculture inspectors going in, there's council inspectors going in. There's different...it kind of varies from county to country. So there isn't like a hard and fast system of how we actually inspect these premises. So, I can't for the life of me, understand why we haven't been appointed a Dog Welfare Inspector. Or like, a minister. Specifically over dog-breeding. Because it's such a huge industry now. Like, it's absolutely massive. There was a really good article in the Sunday Times, the Ireland edition there, back in January about Ireland has become...

HOST: Oh, that's the one on your site, yes, the link to it. Oh, it's brilliant.

ZARA: It was 120 million puppy farm industry. Like that's a huge amount of money. Like the amount of tax that's not being made out of that. So I cannot understand, if these people are being properly taxed, how that money can't fund a dog-breeding minister. And they've a whole department that they're specifically over dog-breeding establishments and everything is a lot more heavily regulated than it is at the moment and everything is properly enforced. So if you do decide to buy a puppy, like I said, there's a centralised database and you can go on there and you're safe in the knowledge that your pup is being well-bred. That they're healthy. You get them home, they're not going to bite your kids, they're not going to die because they haven't been properly vaccinated, all of that kind of stuff. It's better for everybody, because at the moment it's just an absolute disaster, what's happening. There's a massive dog crisis. There's way too many dogs in the country and no-one's doing anything about it, apart from people like us, but we're not the people in power.

HOST: So you've got all these unregulated breeders, they're making a fortune and then those dogs end up, for whatever reason - they're not wanted, they're offloaded - and it's the rescues who have no money that are trying to mop up the mess...

ZARA: There's that and there's the fact that if you do pay €800 for a puppy that you bought on the side of the road, like, if that puppy dies you're eight hundred quid out of pocket. You know, there's a huge amount of that happening. We get stories from that all the time. And like, people, they just...it's an emotional decision. When you look at a dog...and Dog's Trust just actually did a really good campaign a few years ago where, they were ahm - can't remember what it was called but it was like basically they really tried to sell the dog based on its personality so they didn't have a picture. So they'd no pictures on their website, so it's like you can't have this dog based on what they look like. This is what the dog is like, this is his personality, this is what he likes, this is the kind of family that they'd suit. But I don't think it was that successful because people buy dogs based on what they look like. And it's the worst, it's literally the worst way to get an animal because what they look like has no bearing on how they're going to fit into your family.

You know, it's...and I made the mistake...well, I've never bought a dog but I rescued a dog...jeez, how long we got her now, 13 years. We rescued her because my sister's friend was going to London and she couldn't take her with her and I was like, oh, look at her, she's so cute and Colin, my husband was like, no, I never wanted a terrier, they're barky, they're not dogs for city houses. They're country dogs. I don't want a terrier. Ah, look it, she's really cute. And we have the dog now. We've had her for 13 years and she's senior now, she's a bit of dementia now, God love her. But like, we've kept her obviously. But she wasn't the best fit for our family and also, she's not the friendliest dog. Like, we always wanted more that one dog. I've three now and she rules the roost. But like, she kind of bullies the other two. And it's a bit shit like. Do you know what I mean? You'd love to have...you know, you want them all to get on. Like, I made that mistake of taking the dog that wasn't necessarily suited to our family so I'm speaking from experience. I'm not sitting here, judging people who are making mistakes. I'm like, I've made the mistake. You know? Don't do it! You know, she would have been more suited to a family down the country where she can kind of half get the run of the place. We've a house in Longford and she's happy out down there because we've a big massive fenced in area where she can just roam and she's just so much more chilled out down there.

So you realise this...like, this is the thing about life. You make mistakes and I suppose one area of our education is kind of focused on. It's like, trying to get people to see how much of getting a dog or rescuing a dog is an emotional decision if you're going to do it based on how they look. Whereas, and I've nearly fallen victim to it again, you know, you're looking at all these poor dogs online going oh jesus, Collie, will we just take this one and he's like no. An emotional decision is never good. The outcome is never good. You have to pick...like, getting a dog is such a big commitment. And I wouldn't have...the only reason I have three dogs...obviously I love dogs but ideally we'd have two. I only have a third one because there's so many needing homes and I fostered one and he was just too good to let go. But I read a comment from someone on an article there and he was like, "and people have so many dogs now, like I see people walking two or three dogs!" and it's like, well, they probably don't want two or three dogs but they love dogs and they feel so bad about the current situation, they took another one in. It's like, it's not like I'm willingly going out there like taking in dogs [laughing], exactly. I know there's loads of other people, I see them in the park and we kind of give each other a knowing nod. It's like, I didn't, this wasn't the plan, it's just kind of ended up that way.

HOST: And rescues really do that, don't they? They're always sort of saying, we know what this dog is like, we know what you want, you guys wouldn't fit...and they're like, oh no, I want the big Doberman over there...

ZARA: Or I want the collie who needs loads of mental stimulation. And it's like, no...and then you see on social media as well, drives me insane, when I rescue puts up a dog and they're like "I've applied for this dog and I've applied and you keep saying no." And my thing is like, if you're asking for something and the people who you're asking have seen people like you in so many situations, they've probably noticed something in what you've told them that doesn't add up. Or they can see that it's not going to work out. So if everyone's telling you that they're not going to give you a dog, maybe you need to have a rethink about whether a dog is actually for you. And that's not a judgement thing, that's just based on all...like I speak to a lot of rescue people and the stories they tell me, 90% of dogs that get surrendered it's because of a bad decision. And just not listening to people. Like, oh my God, this drives me insane but it happens all the time. Where one person in the family doesn't want a dog and the other person really does and then they go on either rescue, or they tell the rescue that ya, everyone's on board and they either rescue or buy a dog and the dog comes home and the other person is like, what are you doing, I said I didn't want a dog? And they think, oh, I'll get the dog in and they'll fall in love with it. But they don't because they've actually...like that...it's so disrespectful to do that. Like, if someone's told you, I don't want that and you go and do it, that's literally the worse thing you can do in a relationship and the dog is the one who suffers.

HOST: Absolutely. So actually, that kind of covers, or it's brought us onto, responsible dog ownership. What is the idea? You guys want a test, or...?

ZARA: We want, ya, because at the moment it's far too easy to get a dog in this country. And I think you only need to look at the amount of abuse that's going on to realise that. We've a major problem with how we view dogs and dog ownership. And, like my father-in-law was telling me a story there a couple of weeks ago that a neighbour of his said...he actually told him, like, I couldn't believe this. He was like, ah, the dog's gone. Oh yeah, he's gone. He said, what did you do? And he said, sure I drove up to Donegal and just left him in a field. Or like a forest or something. And I was horrified. My father-in-law was absolutely horrified. And I'm just going, he's done this and there's absolutely no consequence. And he's not even trying to hide it, he's openly telling people. And that's...like, to live in a country where someone feels that that's acceptable. Do you know what I mean? It's like you're actually admitting that you've done this horrendously cruel thing. Like nobody would dream about abandoning a child, and admitting that they abandoned a child. And I do look it at, like, I just, it's literally, for me, it's the worst thing you can do because dogs are so loyal and loving. I just know what mine are like, you know, I think that's really bad and as a society we just have to do better.

So ya, responsible-wise, we want there to be really strict...ah, in Switzerland for example, there's loads of hoops you have to jump through to get a dog. And if it's really difficult, you know, it's to weed out the people who aren't going to look after them. This is the whole point of making things difficult. Like, you can't just start driving. You have to do a theory test, you have to get the car, you have to do the lessons. And it should be the...like, that's a car. It's not a sentient being. Like it's not hurting the car if you don't drive it. Whereas a dog is a sentient being. And it has needs, like a child. So we want there to be a theory test and kind of like a course on responsible dog ownership and you have to complete this course. And then you'll get a certificate to say, yes, I have been approved to rescue or buy a dog.

HOST: And isn't that great because you've done the work, then the rescuers know, you're taking work away from the rescues as well because you're like, okay, now we don't have to analyse each person separately. Here's something that tells us, this person has really thought about ownership.

ZARA: They've actually put the effort in and they deserve to own a dog, and the ones that don't, don't pass the test and that's it. And there's a lot less demand for dogs, less dogs are being produced and there's a lot less dogs in rescue and in pounds and the whole lot. And it's been done. Sweden and Switzerland are two phenomenal countries that have incredible dog welfare, animal welfare laws and they have no welfare issues.

HOST: Because like, a lot of dogs now, even though they're supposed to be microchipped, they're not. So if those dogs hurt somebody, nobody's responsible for it.

ZARA: That's the other thing. Like this constant passing the buck for, like, if a dog does something bad that the dog gets put down. Where's the fine for the owner? Like, who's responsible for that dog? Why is the dog being punished for something that essentially is the owner's fault? And that's what doesn't make any sense to me either. This whole breed specific legislation thing. And the legislation that's come in about the XL Bully in the UK.

You know, it's basically in the UK now, you have to have a special dispensation for having an XL Bully. You have to go and get a certificate. And it's a certificate of exemption to own. And basically if the Guards or the warden calls to your house and you don't have that certificate, they take the dog, right? So the dog will essentially spend an amount of time in kennels, waiting to be assessed. So they do all sorts of tests to determine whether it is an XL Bully and at the end if they determine that it is, they can decide what they're going to do. And they'll either give it back to you, with the certificate or they'll destroy the dog. So the owner? Why is he not getting a fine? He/she? Why are they not getting a fine. It's all about the dog. It's putting the onus on the dog. Dogs aren't human. They can't go out and get themselves certified. Like, the whole Bully/Staffie - like these bull breed things - like the media have so much to answer for around this. Like these dogs are the kindest, softest, gentlest dogs you can imagine. If they're trained to be aggressive, they will be aggressive and they've the potential to do real harm. And that is obviously a problem.

But why are we not dealing with the people who are training them to be aggressive? Why are we punishing the dogs and the people who are responsible? The dogs are absolutely...like, these dogs just, they don't attack. They're so...if they're not bred like that, they're so soft. Anyone who has this breed and has experienced this breed is tearing their hair out because they're like, they're killing these poor beautiful innocent dogs who, all they want to do is lie on the couch and have a cuddle. It's absolutely horrendous what's going on. And the pounds are full of them at the moment. There was one I watched, I looked at last week, Gloria in DSPCA and, oh my God, she just wants to be wrapped up in blankets. And they've had her ears cropped. Like, she didn't crop her own ears. Like these horrible people crop the dog's ears to make them look a certain way and like, the dog gets punished because of these feckin eegits.

HOST: I think, was it the Conor Dowling thing as well he was talking about the fashions in dogs and like one year it's this and the next year it's this and that's terrible because as soon as a dog goes out of fashion, that's it. There's still hundreds...thousands of them around...nobody wants them, they're like, no, I can't put that on Instagram, that won't work.

ZARA: And ya know, like, that's really...we're really seeing an influx of - oh, what are they called, the little ah, small...

HOST: The dachshunds, the sausage dogs?

ZARA: No, the other ones, the ones before.

HOST: French bulldogs, the little Frenchies.

ZARA: French bulldogs. They're being abandoned in droves now because they've so many health issues as they go into their old age. So you paid like, whatever, two or three grand for this dog and now, it's going to cost a fortune to mind it and it's like, no, feck it, I'll just get rid of it. So there's like, a good few of those in rescues at the moment as well.

HOST: And I can remember when they were everywhere and everybody was paying a fortune for them. That's terrible, to think, a couple of years down the line they're going, don't want you.

ZARA: Ya, out of favour. Like, it's just, again, that's all down to how the dog looks. Why are we not looking at the dog's personality and how it's going to fit in with our lifestyle?

HOST: Let's talk about neutering because that is, kind of, one of the big solutions, isn't it? To just stop...

ZARA: Oh absolutely, ya. That's an area like...so, initially I suppose when myself and John got together last year we were like, I was like, right, we need long term goals and short term goals. So our long term goals are all of that kind of puppy farm stuff. But the short term goals and particularly for this year are to try and tackle the current crisis is a national funded - fully funded - neutering program. Like, I just feel that the government has neglected this area for so long that the least they can do is cough up a bit of money and try and fix it now. Try and put some sort of a quick fix onto a horrific situation. And if there was a national neutering program people absolutely would get their dog neutered. Because most people I speak to that won't get them neutered is because it's €150-200 quid. Like, it's a lot of money, in a cost of living crisis. And these aren't people who don't love their dogs. They do. But people are stretched in a cost of living crisis, they absolutely are. Anyone, even two-income households, if you've two kids now, it's very hard to just live and have an extra €200 at the end of the month, to do something like that. So if there was a national neutering program put into place, I think it'd be very effective.

And then longer term around neutering; there was a case there in, I think it's in Australia...if you get your dog neutered you don't have to pay your dog license for like 10 years or something. So basically it's 100 quid a year or get the dog neutered and you don't have to pay that. So that sort of incentivised neutering would go a long way. This is the other thing, the dog license in this country, it's €25 a year. Most people buy it once and then, like, there's no reminder like there is with a tv license, there's no incentive to get it again. But if they were to charge, again, if you were to have that as part of your responsible ownership course, where you got your certificate and then you got your dog license when you got your dog and you got your reminder to have the dog license and it was expensive. I think if it was €100 a year and you have to get it every year. If you are being incentivised that you get 10 years free, people would absolutely do it. And if you increase the cost of the dog license then that's going to fund more wardens, to encourage responsible dog ownership. Who will catch people, in parks, who are not being responsible. And fine them. Don't take the dog. Like, heavy fines. Like it really isn't rocket science but I just don't understand why the ideas and the will just don't seem to be there to make any proper changes. Why can't we just introduce these...some, I think there is still an attitude around animal welfare in this country, that's just not conducive to good standards. Where people think, ah, it's just a dog. And some of these ideas that I'm talking about are probably seen as radical. But they're not radical. They lead to responsible ownership and a lot less cruelty and a lot less neglect, which is just better for everybody.

HOST: And enforcement seems to be a major problem too, so I have heard people saying, well, we have animal welfare laws and we have that so everything's fine and you're going well, they're not being enforced.

ZARA: Not being enforced, exactly. There's no point having legislation if it's not enforced. And that's something that My Lovely Horse has been pushing for a long time, to have a Garda animal welfare unit in every county. And there needs to be. But then I know people who are in the Guards and like, they have an absolute nightmare trying to get other Guards to investigate animal cruelty cases; they're like, oh for feck's sake, there's real crime happening over here. It's like, well, if that's the attitude, like, that's...do we want to live in a country where animals are just routinely abused and nobody has to face the consequences. That's not a country I want to live in. Like, I love Ireland, I love being Irish but it's the one thing that I'm just so ashamed of about our country, that we just don't value animals the way we should.

HOST: I just did an interview with Mark Randell and he does a lot of work connecting animal cruelty with human cruelty and saying if you investigate animal cruelty you'll find human cruelty. So, exactly what you were saying there, he's like police have got to take animal cruelty seriously. But there's the whole thing of let the animal rescues take care of that. And they have no authority.

ZARA: This is the problem. I mean, my friend was telling me of a case there - and this just makes no sense to me, I can't understand people getting dogs to just leave them out the back - like, she said this girl, she had a dog, out the back, she just left him out the back in a tiny cage with no food or water in horrendous weather. So my friends eventually got a Guard to come to the door with them and say, we're taking the dog. So they took the dog. And like your woman wasn't agreeing but they took it in the end. They took the dog. But she just went and got another dog. And is doing the same thing. And it's a puppy. And the puppy is being left out in all weathers. It's infuriating and there's just no consequences again. A litany of no consequences.

HOST: So that's really where you guys are coming from, it's like we've got to start with prevention. We can't constantly be trying to fix the problem, we've got to go right back to the beginning with prevention.

ZARA: We have to go back to the start. We have to go back, we have to admit that we've messed up, go back to the start. Start to implement actual proper laws, figure out how we're going to get funding to fund people to actually enforce these laws and, ya, go back to the beginning and start from scratch. And stop burying our heads in the sand and thinking it'll be fine. It won't. It's only going to get worse. And, like you say, there's so often connection between people who abuse animals and then go on to abuse people, and maybe if we caught them when they were at abusing animal stage we'd stop them before they get to the killing people stage. And I absolutely believe that. 

HOST: Exactly. So, in terms of...so you were talking there about legislation and laws...ahm, in terms of what, what would help you guys, what do you need people to do, or is it just that you need kind of financial support? What kind of different things do you need?

ZARA: No, we don't actually, we don't want financial support because we're not a charity. At the moment, we're an advocacy - we do have a charity application and we're waiting for that to be approved - so we're not actually looking for funding. What we are looking for is more dedicated volunteers. So at the moment, I'm doing...so I'm kind of looking after the marketing. I'm doing some of the media, if John's not able, I'm also doing the social media with another girl. She's helping me. I give her the content and she makes videos. And I'm doing the newsletter and pretty much that's it.

And I'm trying to organise a rally for everybody to get involved with. With our demands, with the local elections coming up...and possibly a general election soon enough as well. So I'm kind of doing all of that and like, you know, most people, I've a full time job, I've three dogs, an elderly mother, so I'm busy. And it's trying to find the time. I just, this is my absolute passion project, I love it, but I just don't have the time to dedicate to it that it needs, but I'm a 100% committed and I really want, I really want us to get somewhere and see change. And we have such a good team with our lobbyist and our legal team, and our PR company that I know that if we just had the resources we can absolutely effect change eventually.

So we would love, what I have found is when we put out a call for volunteers, you get people who email, and again, it's an emotional decision, they might see something on social media and they go, oh, I want to do more, and then, you know, you ring them, you speak to them and they go, oh no, actually I don't have the time. So that's kind of taking away from our time. That takes away from the tiny bit of time that we already have to kind of focus on this project. So we would love for a couple of kind of very dedicated people who know they have about two hours a week to spare, who could get involved and just take one of those things off our plate, or even come up with ideas themselves on how we drive this forward. Like, we've so many ideas but it's just finding the people to help us with it? Like, John had a great idea there where he wanted DAI in every county, so you'd have like a group of volunteers in each county and they kind of meet up and they would come together as a group to lobby their local council for better dog welfare laws. So whatever, we'd give them the kind of material and they'd kind of lobby on our behalf I suppose. And do events like, just different kind of events maybe for fundraising for their local rescues or that kind of thing.

HOST (Voiceover): I'd just like to share a quick clip from a TED talk by Laura Gonzo, who volunteered to rescue animals in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

LAURA GONZO TED TALK CLIP: So we've looked at animal rescue as a lens into volunteerism, but you say, what if I'm not into animal rescue? Fear not, good citizens, because volunteering of all kinds is great for you and it's great for the community. People who volunteer are less likely to suffer ill health later in life. Seniors in particular, receive both physical and mental health benefits. Cities or states with high rates of volunteers have lower mortality and lower rates of heart disease, and communities with a lot of volunteers are more civically healthy. That means, those people are more likely to vote, those people are more likely to go out and fix whatever needs to be fixed in their community, because they know they can. Those communities are more connected and more vibrant.

HOST (Voiceover): Back to you, Zara.

ZARA:  I mean, there's so many people who might be retired even. They're still young, they've got energy, they've got passion and they want a passion project. Like we would love to hear from them. Who might have a few hours that they can donate. Like and there's so many things that we could do if we had more people. Like, I do have, I've an article coming out...I did an interview with the Irish Country Magazine that's coming out in the next couple of weeks and I'm hoping we get maybe a few people from that, and we also need ambassadors.

We need celebrity ambassadors to do like, when we get the opportunity to do radio interviews and tv interviews and stuff, like they generally engage better with kind of well known ambassadors. So that's something that we're crying out for as well, to have, somebody who's well know to align themselves with us. And really it's just to create an army of dog-lovers around the country who are just going to stand up and go, no, you know what, feck this. I'm not putting up with this anymore. You know, we need to do better. And like, there's a gang of us now. And like, there is strength in numbers.

And the more people...like, I can guarantee if...like, we have about 600 people on our Instagram. If all of those people emailed their TDs with the letter we have on our website I'm pretty sure that when conversations are being had - and then we have our lobbyist in there talking - like, Jesus, this is actually something people are starting to care about. It gathers momentum. The more people that are talking about something, the more people that are doing things. Like everyone always thinks, aw, jeez, I'm too small to make a difference. No person is too small. Every little helps. Every action leads to bigger action. And I really want us to have a rally in the middle of the year where every dog lover - I know on a Saturday everyone's got plans but, you know what, I'm actually going to do this, and we maybe get three to four thousand people in the city centre, just screaming and shouting for better animal welfare laws. So that's the dream for this year. So that's really what we want, like a couple more volunteers, people emailing your TDs. And just...and I know there's...people on social media they're always donating money to animal rescues. Like, they'd be screwed without them so people can donate money but it's really at this stage now, things are so bad that we need people to do a bit more and donate time, in whatever way they can.

HOST: Like I cannot tell you how important your group is because for years I've been following, you know, animal rescue and stuff and you're kind of thinking, oh, I wish somebody could...just do exactly what you've done and said, somebody needs to get into the before, prevention and start talking about laws and stuff. Which is the kind of boring stuff, but it's the stuff that makes that happen. 

ZARA: That's what makes things happen. But I just know...if you look at all of the kind of, big campaigns that we've had as a country over the last however many years, you know, repeal and the marriage referendum and even the water charges; when enough people care about something and they just go, actually no, feck it, I'm not going to stay in this weekend, I'm going to go and do this. When you get boots on the ground, it does work. Like, they do listen and they do change things. So it's just really to drive that message that like, we need more bodies on the street shouting about this and saying, no, it's not good enough.

HOST: And I mean, this is a way that you can really, really help dogs. Even though you're not anywhere near dogs, you will make a significant change to so many dogs' lives.

ZARA: That's kind of one of the reasons I got involved was because again, I would probably have twenty dogs here now and be tearing my hair out because I'm not able for it. Like, I have the sensible husband who's like, no, Zara, and thank God for him because otherwise I'd...I'd probably be in a slightly hoarder situation. But that's why I got involved because I was like, right, I can't keep fostering and rescuing so I'll just do this and hopefully this will have a bigger impact overall. But I'm very impatient. I just want the change now. Because I just can't cope with what I'm seeing out there, and it's just getting worse. When you think it can't get any worse, it does. And it's just continuous.

Like, Dublin County Dog Shelter posted - Friday or Saturday - like their diary was empty for the week - nobody was coming to see the dogs. And they've got some amazing dogs. Like, dogs of all shapes and sizes, they've got some beautiful Staffies who would actually be fine with a family, they've got gorgeous German Shephards and the senior dogs...like, I rescued a senior dog and he's just the best. He's so easy, there's just no drama with him, he just ambles along and he's just chilled out, he fit in with the other two. They just want a retirement home, they just want to lie there and look at you and they're so grateful. They're just like, thank you so much for taking me. They know! And the loyalty you get off those dogs, the senior dogs. And yeah, it is, I know he's absolutely going to break my heart and it's coming. It's coming in the next couple of years but I wouldn't regret taking him for a minute because it's just one of those things, well, do you live your life not loving because you're going to get hurt to do you just keep loving and getting hurt and keep loving anyway. You know? And that's just the way I am with dogs, they're just amazing.

HOST: You have company there as well I can see (laughing).

ZARA: Oh, I always do. They've been coming up at different little intervals.

HOST: That's why, same thing, my cat was here and I was like, you know what, she gets it, it's fine (laughing). Oh, it was so interesting to talk to you and I'm really encouraged, you know, and keep going, please do keep going.

ZARA: No, I will, because I am...I have the bit in my teeth and I'm just not going to stop until something happens. No, I am determined, I just need help. Thanks a million, Samantha, it was great chatting.

HOST: Ok, we'll try and get you a bit of support, get you other people on board.

HOST (Voiceover): If you'd like to learn more about the work of this wonderful group, you can go to their website at dogadvocacyireland.ie. Everything is laid out very clearly and many of the links that we talked about can be found there. You can subscribe to their newsletter, follow them on social media, and of course if you have some time to volunteer, they’d love to hear from you. If you love dogs – if dogs play or have played a meaningful role in your life, then this is a really powerful way to return the favour. Thank you so much for listening, that’s it for now, I’ll see you next time.