20. Vegan Planet Africa

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HOST (Voiceover): Hello and welcome back to the Animal Friendly podcast. My guest today is Julius Kirumira, an inspirational young vegan advocate from Uganda.

JULIUS: I'm Julius Kirumira, from Uganda. 20 years of age. Actually, I made 21 this year, in March, so I'm 21. I'm a student at the University, it's called Nkumba University, located in Entebbe. Where actually our organisation is operating. Another thing, I'm a vegan. I've been vegan for now 5 years, making 6, maybe towards the end of this year, it's going to be 6 years. So, that's me.

HOST: That's pretty good. You're a vegan longer than me. I'm only vegan 4 years so, you're much younger than me but older in vegan years.

HOST (Voiceover): Julius founded Vegan Planet Africa in 2019 and the organisation advocates for a sustainable vegan lifestyle and champions animal welfare in Africa. They promote plant-based eating for the benefit of human health, to combat climate change and to protect the environment and all animals.

They work on different projects and we’ll talk about some of those, as well as their plans for the future but we started by talking about how Julius decided he wanted to live a life of compassion and caring for animals.

HOST: Would you like to tell that story of how you became vegan? Also now, do you feel stronger as a vegan now, and more confident than when you started?

JULIUS: Of course, yes. Totally yes. 100%. Because, when I was young, for me, eating meat was a joy. Remember, we were poor, as a family. I grew up with a single mum. Not that my dad died. My dad is there but, you know, these dads that abandon. Then they leave you alone. You know? So that’s it. So, growing up with my mum, we used to eat meat only on these big days; Christmas, Easter. So it was a joy to eat meat because we ate it maybe twice in a year. A long time ago I used to be vegetarian but I didn't know. Because first we used to eat vegetables every day. But because I didn't know, I just thought, man, we are just poor. Eating this, we are just poor. You get? Because joy in the young children by then was from eating meat. Eating meat, eating chicken, that one, you were so rich. Your family was too rich. So, I grew up with a single mum. And then a friend, a friend which was a dog. Was called Max. For me, ever since I started analysing things, understanding things, I used to see Max. So he was a good friend of mine. And then, there was my little sister, for her, she was too little. But for me, with Max, it was fab. We were two good friends. So one time, I came back from school. You know my mum works in the market. She sells vegetables, tomatoes, whatever. So I came back home, because I know where the keys were, every time. And I come, I open up for myself, I do some house-work and then I go to the market, to see her. So when I came, I didn't see Max. I did everything, I did everything, I didn't see him. So, when I went to mum, I asked mum, have you seen Max anywhere? Because even Max knew where mum worked from. So sometimes used to go there, be there for some time…because, since we were too poor, we couldn't afford feeding him. Like, buying him stuff. So he used to go search for what to eat on the bush, in the neighbours. So that's how he did. So mum said no, I didn't know where he is. So I came back home. The day went to night. We didn't see him. So the following day I didn't go to school. So we went checking. Then I found him, we found him on the bush…his stomach was too big, you know with a lot of flies around him.

HOST (Voiceover): Sadly, Max had died from being poisoned.

At that time, Julius was young and didn’t realise that the Ugandan government sometimes carries out poisoning programmes in order to control the population of stray dogs.

So not only had he lost a beloved friend but he was upset and confused by not knowing how or why it had happened.

JULIUS: By that time, I didn't know that he was poisoned, you know? You know, I was young. So I called my mum. My mum saw him, like, said he was poisoned. Because imagine, I was young, I didn't know poison. Because the government used to do such things. They used to poison stray dogs, cats even. So at the time, it was too hard for me, because I had lost a friend, you know? I lost a friend, who was a good friend of mine. I used to come back from school, we are together. So it was a really hard time for me, you know? Many things came into my mind. I said, now what’s next? Okay, I have a sister but the sister is too young, we can’t have fun, we can't walk around. Because when I used to come back from school, we used to have some walking, evening walks. It was really great. But then I said, now, what am I going to do? I was too confused. From that young age, I said no, I have to do something. For me, my first mission was not being vegan. It was just having justice for animals, you know?  So I was not intending to be vegan, because I didn't know anything about veganism. For me, my mission was to have justice for Max. So, time went on. Because I was young, I couldn't do much. I couldn't do much, I couldn't do much. But then when I went to my high school, then I learned about veganism. But of course I had that joy and that courage of helping animals, and I loved them too much. And you couldn't hurt any animal when I'm around. At least, you beat me, but you couldn't hurt him. Or anyone. Even if it's a farm animal, whatever. So when I heard about veganism, that's how I evolved. I said, oh, even this is...is it a trend? Is it a belief? I didn't know. So I just followed it. I said now, shall we just see. Then, after that, I came up with an idea, of maybe coming up with an organisation that fights for animal rights. But through veganism. I don't know whether it's a trend, I don't know whether it's a belief, I was just follow it, because it has what I want. The fight for animals, that's what I really want to do also. So I just followed it. But then it grew up. I realised that vegans don't eat meat. I realise vegans don't eat eggs. Don't drink milk. Don't use whatever it belongs to an animal. There I said, oh, then I have to leave everything. So that's how I left meat. But of course it was hard journey. Because it was something treat, maybe special. The day you eat meat, you feel, yes, now maybe I'm rich. But in actual sense, you are still poor. You just ate some little meat from maybe neighbours, from friends. So I started this journey alone. It was really challenging because no one I could tell about it and they believe. Everyone could say, ah, no, no, no man, how can I stop eating chicken? Can you see that? I can't do that. So, it was really hard. So I went into this alone. But after, I start gaining friends. Friends who thought that veganism was the best way for their health.  You know? Going plant-based, leaving animals. Because I have other friends that have those problems of health, but because of what? Because of eating meat.

HOST (Voiceover): People in Uganda often suffer infections from the production and consumption of animal products. The Atlas Vegan Community School opened in 2023 and it is Uganda’s first vegan school. It is run by a friend of Julius’s, as he mentions later, and according to them, tape worms are common in children and zoonotic pathogens like brucellosis frequently infect people. There’s bird flu every year and ‘sleeping sickness’ caused by the insects that farmed animals attract.

Julius wanted to inform people about the benefits of a plant-based diet but making his voice heard in the University brought challenges; not least when a dead hen, a chicken, was used to try and intimidate him and to stop him from advocating for veganism.  

JULIUS: Then I joined the university. And of course university was challenging because now these people are too old and they think a lot. So you have to be a good...I don’t know, someone who can talk to convince them. So it was a really big, big challenge for me. Because I remember one day, in my first year at campus, I came back to my hostel. You know, at campus, you rent a hostel where you are going to stay. So it's one room, because for me, now, I don't have that money for this big one, I rent a small, small one. Because, as I talk, I work in a bakery, but I work part-time. To get my tuition, and then my sister…it's challenging. My mum makes some small money, she adds on. And then you add on what you have put in. And then you have to help for you sister. And then still, you have to pay for this hostel room. You know, it's a big challenge for me. Up to now. But of course, I never know, sometimes I handle it, sometimes I doesn't. So, I was saying, then I was coming from school, it was evening. After that evening lecture. I came to my door, I saw it from a distance, there was a hen. You know? But first thing I saw, I couldn't saw that it's alive or dead. So I came, I came closer. Now finding out that these people, this is why, I don't know, they just cut off the head of the hen. They left it there, they spilt blood on my door and then down there. Still. They left the hen there and then there was a big note on my door, like I should stop preaching my funny stuff, my stupid stuff to them. You know? It was heartbreaking, because I thought of many things. I thought maybe, should I leave advocacy? Should I? What should I do? Because it was totally challenging then. I talked to my friend, Mariquita Solis, the Vegan Empowerment Coach, a good friend of mine. I asked her for a Zoom call, because I need someone to explain to, because I was really, really heartbroken. It was a thing that, it would have caused me even to leave advocacy. To leave preaching veganism, promoting it and everything. But she told me, no, no, Julius. The things you entered in is not a straight path, that you just go. There is always corners, there is always hills, there is always ______, so everything that comes your way, you have to just see it, jump it and so go for it. And I said ok, so from that day I became even stronger. Because I have to be hard, I have to be strong. I have to do whatever it takes.

HOST (Voiceover): Julius mentioned Mariquita Solis there, a Vegan Empowerment Coach and someone who has been very supportive to him over the years. Julius shows his commitment to the cause by constantly working to educate himself and increase his knowledge and resilience. He speaks about how this helps him to educate and persuade others along their vegan journey.

JULIUS: So, they might come to you and say, okay, I will try this. And of course it's good, because no-one can become a vegan from a first day, like, and they leave everything. No. These people, just say maybe, they say they don't eat meat, but they are still eating chicken. And then I say it's okay. Because take your time. You can't force someone to just come and be a vegan, total. No, no, no. Leave them to go step by step. Someone can tell you, as for me, now I no longer eat meat but I eat chicken. You say, ok. It's okay. Then after some time, he say, yes, I no longer eat chicken. But I drink milk. Then you say it's okay. You get? Then after some time, they tell you, oh Julius, now I'm a total vegan. I don't eat anything.  But of course they are missing it. They say, ah…sometime we be chilling, maybe at school they say, ah Julius, I feel like eating some eggs. Then you say, ah, no, no, man. You see? So they say okay. So you are copying up with friends who are willing to change but of course step by step. But of course, as I said, it's challenging. In fact, it's even more in school than even the community. Because when I visit the community, these community members, it's easier to tell them because you can find them having their issues with health. Many of them are having issues with health. But if you give them an alternative of going plant-based, for them, they listen. But of course not this older generation. Because older generation is kind of stubborn. I don't know whether I'm harsh but these old generation, they are too stubborn. You tell them something, because you are a young kid, now they start saying now, what can you, you a 21-year-old, tell me? Me a 69, whatever 70-something. You get? But this younger generation of ours, we are promising. Really promising. They are willing to change. So that’s why, for us, we put all our focus on the younger generation more...I'm not saying that we are leaving out the older one…it’s hard to maybe, telling them something they don't want to hear. Like, for an example, at my age, I'm 21. And it's hard for me to learn more than 2 languages now, it's really hard. But for a 6 year old; five, six, seven, it's easier for them to learn more than 2 at their age. So, the same applies to this advocacy. Whereby, when I tell someone who is 15 and above, maybe to 30; for them it's easier to change because they still have time. And of course they fear future health problems. It's easier. That's why we are focusing on these young people, more, but of course you're not leaving out the old people. So my journey to veganism is a joy to my side, is a joy. Because, right now I can assure that I've taken more than - leave alone these diseases of malaria...because malaria is inevitable...mosquitoes are everywhere – but these diseases of fever, whatever, I've taken years without having any issue. With those bad, bad health problems. You get? So it's a joy for me. And another thing, for the animals. Leave alone my health, but for the animals. Because whenever we give alternatives to people, for the plant-based, we are creating a peace. We are creating faith and hope for these animals. Because the more people demand plant-based diets, the more the animal demand is lowered.

HOST: Ya.

JULIUS: So that's why we are making it more in our community to advocate for the plant-based alternative. So that...this animal demand…no wild and even animal products. Because right now, in my community, milk is too scarce to find. And these eggs. They're too scarce to find. That's why. Because people are opting for maybe greens, carrots, what, whatever. So that's really nice to see, it's a good sign. So that's how we are moving it on the side of veganism and advocating for plant-based.

HOST (Voiceover): Vegan Planet Africa engage in a variety of outreach projects; including a programme to protect other stray dogs from the same fate that befell Max and their latest exciting project – Aqua Bloom Uganda.

But first, let’s hear about their project of bringing the plant-based eating experience to young children at a primary school.

JULIUS: So, for me, the best thing that I ever see is that those kids were excited. Because we prepared a rice, we have beans, _____, and then greens, watermelons, all the fruits we brought. So these kids are too excited. Whereby it gave us the chance to explain, because the meal was too sweet for them, and then we had the good chance to explain why that meal was good. Why that meal was the best for their health. Why that meal had to be taken by even their parents at home. So it was a nice, nice, nice project. Because we didn't find any difficulty. We cooperated well with the school. The school said, your initiative is good. So they gave us a day, we came, we talked to the children, we gave them lunch So even up to now they are saying, when are these guys coming back, because the headmaster is always calls me; you people, come talk to my children, whatever, you see. But of course, because of the funds, I tell him, alright, I would like to come back but, funds, because how much has to be put in. Anytime we get the funds, we shall go back and teach these children, because they were really interested. And because, to the school, now children are opting for plant-based more.

HOST: Wow.

JULIUS: Even are saying, prepare, prepare, maybe lunch with carrots, with watermelon, we want pineapples, you get? So these children are really showing a good impact. So, we didn't find any difficulties in that project. And it was totally successful for us. And then when you listen to the reports that are coming from the school, they are top-notch. They are a big sign that that what we talked about, because we talked about plant-based more. But of course in the defence of animals. You get? And of course we talked about climate reasons and environment reason. But of course these are young kids. They may not understand much about climate change. We were more on animals and then going plant-based. Yes. But it was really, really nice. People asked questions, they were too intelligent by that because there was a kid, was in Primary Four. She asked me; "Yes, you're saying..." This, sometimes the meat has, we said they cause health problems, they cause diseases. Then she was like, "Can you tell me one kind of a disease that meat can cause?" That question was too good for young kid. You get? Because when you can talk to someone who is maybe 20, 30, and he cannot ask you such a question. You get? So I had to explain the diseases, and even the challenges you can get. Because, actually in Uganda - I don't know whether in other countries it's common - people slaughter already animals with their diseases. You get?

HOST: Like Brucellosis? Or what disease?

JULIUS: Yes, Brucella, of course. So, there is a disease, what do you call it? There is a disease I used to _____ about, it's more in cows. It causes them to bring mucus, their eyes are red, I'm forgetting that disease. So, many people here, those people who sell meat, they get those, all the infected animals, they slaughter them so they sell to people. Now for you, you can take it and then maybe you eat it half-cooked - it's bringing you some kind of infections in your body. You get? So this kid asked a good question. And of course I had to answer. So I explained, well...so all of them were like, now we are understanding. But remember, they are kids. To get a response from first kids is really a good sign. So, as I said, that project was really nice and those people are saying that we should go back. But as I told you, sometimes the funds. The funds cut us off and we can't manage to do what we can do. But of course when the funds are there, we have many, many projects that are crucial to the community.

HOST: There was one project with the dogs, when you went around and told everybody...? 

JULIUS: That first project, that first project...yes, the government say, they brought in a notice. That they are going to...you people, if you have stray dogs, let them stay at home, they are going to poison them. Now for me, who is a victim of poisoning, I couldn't accept that. Because Max was lost in such a thing. They poisoned him to death. So I had to react. I talked to my colleagues, they said, yes Julius, we are going to do it. We are going to go home by home, it's possible, to tell these people, to get off their animals on the streets. But of course you can't just go as you are. You have to take some food for these stray dogs. So, we cooperated with Miss Mariquita, we had our ongoing fund-raising so some people donated to us, some money, so we went in the project. We bought some food for these stray dogs. So we bought the food, we went home by home, if it was possible. So we were telling them, people, just vacate your animals on the streets. Let them stay home, they want to poison them. So many people listened, but of course, as you know, you can't...on ten scale, at least 2%, 2, will refuse to do what you say. But for now, I was happy because many of them did what we told them.  And even, the report came in after, the report came in after that they found little stray animals on the streets. So it was really good. What we did on the streets, like, telling people, "people, you just get your dogs, make them stay home, to avoid killing them", that was nice. For those who listened, they did it and their animals survived. But those who did, because you remember ever in the Bible? Noah came, told the guys, you people, come on the Ark. Some refused, you get? You can force someone to do what they don't want. For me, I played my part, I made a difference. That's how I take it. For me it was a success because I tried my level best.

HOST: That's true.

HOST (Voiceover): Julius has a lot of enthusiasm for their latest project – Aqua Bloom Uganda – where he and his colleagues are going out to talk to people on the shores of Lake Victoria. Lake Victoria is Africa’s largest lake by area - that area being almost 60,000 square kilometres. It is the world’s largest tropical lake and it’s home to many species of fish which live nowhere else. It is bordered by Uganda, Tanzania and Kenya.

Vegan Planet Africa are using the knowledge they gather from the people who live on the lake to come up with ideas to fight pollution and climate change, as well as help the marine life of the lake.

HOST: I'm very interested in this new project, the Aqua Bloom Uganda.

JULIUS: Actually, thank you so much because it's the ongoing project, as of now. Which we started in April, last month. April came and we were able to get some funds from local people, because of partnerships here. From local businesses. And then some good friends of ours from abroad, USA, Netherlands. So we got in some funds so we started. Ah, this project, Aqua Bloom Uganda, focuses more on protecting marine life, promoting veganism around the lakes and also addressing climate change. Because there's no way you can talk about protecting marine life without talking about pollution and everything. You know? So the project focuses more there on protecting marine life, is the cause. So, through that, of course you have to advocate for veganism and plant-based lifestyle. So, so far we are on our first phase. You know, it's a nine-month project. Whereby we started with the research. Knowing what's really going on with this people around the lakes. Because right now we are talking about Lake Victoria. Lake Victoria has at least 2 million people around it, on it, so it's huge. It crosses from Uganda to Kenya to Tanzania so it's a huge lake. And whereby these people there, not all of them maybe like fishing or whatever but because of economic status and their needs, that's why some people end up on lakes, doing what they do. Because you can't blame someone doing what they do because you don't know why they are doing it. So our first phase that we are doing right now focuses more on getting what brought these people on the lakes? What are they doing there? What they benefit from being on the lakes? How do they feel the lake? What does the lake mean to them? So that's what we are doing right now. And because of that, we are looking to individuals. Because now if you talk someone who maybe sells silverfish. You may be talking to around 10k people, ten thousand people, because many people do different jobs on the lakes. So if you get like 2 people and they talk on behalf of their members, that's enough. Because their challenges are the same. So we just get categories. We get someone who maybe sells lungfish, someone who offloads luggages on the boats. So, the one we get he's talking on behalf of the others, because you can't get all of them. The lake is too big. Right now, that's what we are focusing on. Then, after the end of this month, if we are able...because now we are out of funds. We first did the first phase on the...the first part on the lake. So then we are out of funds and we are now not on it, because we don't have the funds. And of course you have to progress. You have to do that. So in our next part - because there are many with two parts - we are planning to use $1,000 in one part and then $1,000 in one part. That's $2,000 in order to complete our first phase. You get? So, we are looking for donations that sum up to $2,000. To help us to complete our phase. Now after that phase, we're going to go to the second phase. But before the second phase, you have to have a break of maybe one month, for the importance of monitoring, evaluation for the impact that we have done. In our first phase, because the second phase will be more workshops - organising workshops, seminars, teaching people about what do we learn from them in the first phase. Now, you need some time - one month to two months - monitoring that impact. Then writing down reports. Then, through that report, it will be easier for us in the second phase of workshops and seminars, it will be easier to address everything because we know, through experience. There's no way you can come to someone, who you don't know why he is on the lake, who you don't know why he is fishing and then you start saying, "You go vegan". It doesn't make sense. So it's better we first listen from them and then we evaluate their responses. We analyse them. Then in the second phase it will be easy because you will be saying maybe, we have another alternative. Now some of them comes and says, you know, for me, I am a fishmonger, through fishing, that's how I get my school fees for my children. That's how I get something to feed my family. That person, you have to handle him or her in the best way possible, because the thing we want him to do, like to go vegan, to stop fishing, is the thing that helps him or her to feed their families or even pay school fees for their children. You get? So you need to come up with something that will be a good alternative to them. So we shall use that time, one months to two months, to come up with those alternatives, and we'll see how we can communicate better to these people. And then after the end of it, so we shall have the last phase. That phase will be like one month. Just to analyse the final impact.

HOST (Voiceover): Julius shows a lot of patience and pragmatism when it comes to dealing with the problems and obstacles they encounter as they carry out their project.

JULIUS: And another thing, the problem we are facing, is that we might talk to someone who sees things in a different way. But they are doing the same job. But for him he's seeing things the different way. So we take our views from him, if they are not the same with the other. It's a problem. And another problem, people on the lakes, many of them are illiterate. So you can explain to them in everything but they end up saying but now we are don't understanding it. Because maybe we are explaining in our native language. Now for me, I'm Ugandan by tribe. You know? And I only know our language, not their language. So you might find on the lake, people there with many, many tribes. Like, seven tribes. So, language barrier.  Not everyone knows English. And not everyone knows our local language. So language barrier is a problem, main problem. And then we have our weather. Sometimes we can't reach out to many people because of weather. It's shiny and then after 20 minutes it's going to rain. And then you have to back off. So there are many things in this project, but the good thing, we are there. We are there. We are at least doing something. And it's a promising project. Because people are giving in their good views, people are giving in what they can do alternatively. It's really progressing. Just because right now, we have a problem of funding. So we paused it, we paused it a bit. So for us, our main focus right now is getting that $2,000 to finish our first phase. Because, the baddest thing, if you pause for too long. Like, if you pause for all of this month and then you pause for June and then maybe July. You find out maybe that you go back when these people lose morale.

HOST: They forget, ya.

JULIUS: They already lost morale, yes, they forgot already. And another thing, their trust. Because if you tell so much about going back. Or maybe even two months, you're losing trust. You're losing community trust. It's better to tell them, now, guys, we are ending our first phase so we shall come back in two months time. And we give them time. But when we just break off and then go, then can say, what happened to these people? By the time we come back, they are already forgetting your stuff and then they are saying, no, no, no, you can't go back on that, maybe. And even, it affects our momentum. Because if a thing is progressing well and then you break up for too long, then you come back and your momentum is too low. Yes, that is what is on the table right now.

HOST: Yes, how did people react and what did you learn from it?

JULIUS: Ahm, so there are different reactions. So there are embarrassing ones, there are good ones, there are fair ones. Someone can tell you maybe, I can't leave this lake. This lake is my life, this lake is my family, this lake is my everything. So, I agree with what you're saying but unfortunately I can't leave. Some people just say, oh, just leave, don't tell us your nonsense, whatever. Very well. I explained our views and points and the reaction was good. So what we learned from these people is that, don't judge a book by its cover. It was our best lesson there. Because, all of us came on that lake thinking why can't these people cut out fishing? Why do they kill fish? Why don't they leave the fish alone? Those were the questions that we had in our head. But when it came in, we saw that some of them even are doing it because it's for survival. They don't have anything else to do. So we learned lesson that never judge a book by its cover. Because you don't know why those people are doing what they do. You know? Some people feed their families from the lake. These people who carry luggages, from the boats to maybe the shores. The job is too heavy for them because imagine carrying like, ten luggages a day. Heavy ones! You're risking your life. You're having back pains. You have to go to the doctor. And then you're earning too small money. Because lifting the luggage here on the lakes, they said the maximum you can get is 5,000 Uganda new money. That's too, too, small money. It can only take you for lunch.

HOST (Voiceover): Just for reference, 5,000 Ugandan shillings is the equivalent of about one or one and a half US dollars.

JULIUS: So these people are working so hard because of...the most were the families because they don't have else where to get money from. So now it gave us a challenge. Because now we have to think what to really tell these people. Now, on another hand, what they appreciated was, like, we talked about the pollution. There are some people on those lakes, every time they get the rubbish, they pour it in the lake. Every time. So we told them the dangers of this. Because we told them, you go out fishing because you want to help your families. Now, we told them, the more you pour rubbish into this lake, this rubbish can sometimes suffocate these fish and they are going to die. So you end up fishing small, small quantities. So, let's first stop this habit of pouring rubbish into the lakes. Because it's making the lake dirty, hence, killing these fish. You have to first talk about this. The pollution. The pollution is a big problem in our lakes because people on lakes...I don't know. Even you find out that some people, or kids, even some grown-ups, you find them defecating into the lakes. And it's a bad habit. So we talked about it and many were willing to change this. Because we told them, your fishing will be in small amounts because of what you're doing. So they were willing to stop, of course. So, that point to continue, in our second phase, we are going to be examples. We shall come, collect all the garbage. You know? Being exemplary. The second phase will be so crucial, because we shall be exemplary, we shall be carrying out demonstrations, physically, not in words, we shall bring actions in our second phase, which will give them more maybe faith or hope. That what we are talking about is true and is there and it works.

HOST (Voiceover): Seeing what Julius has accomplished so far – during a time that included a worldwide pandemic – I was very interested to hear about his plans for the future.

HOST: Where do you see yourself, maybe, in five years? What is your dream for the future?

JULIUS: Now, for me, personally, I see myself top vegan in Uganda in five years. Because I'm trying to make this, to push, to make the big steps, you know? Right now, I'm writing a book. You know? About my journey. Vegan journey. And then talking about veganism in Uganda. Animal rights in Uganda. So, that step is crucial for me. Because, when this book is done, we shall make more copies. I don't care how, if I would just give it out for free, to children, to older people, in universities, to schools. For me, I want things to move. You know? Like, if it costs me some money, from my pocket, I will do it. But I want this message to move further. Because when I have a book, this book can travel to the community where I'm not. Like, for me, I live in Entebbe, but if I have a book, it can travel to Northern Uganda, it can travel to North Uganda, like, Eastern Uganda, West...because a book, someone can get it online, someone can get it physically. Someone can buy it when it's in the ______, but resides in maybe Northern Uganda. You get? So it will reach there. So, I'm coming up with a book, I'm writing it, I want to, the flow to be nice. I want to have a clear message in it, so that when I finish it, we make more copies as we can, and then we publish it, we give it to people, we give it in universities. Even if I get a chance, it can even go beyond Uganda. You get? So that's the first step I want to make. Now the second step, for me, my main focus would be in schools. Because from schools, these children can go tell their parents. The parents can tell friends. Because finally, we've got the communities but these communities, they have their challenges. You can go to a community with their own character. And you words won't influence any of them, because, for them, they are stuck on the character. But when I come to a university and I tell you something, of course for you, you're in the school, you're not in the community.Your belief will be different from the community. So, for you, you help me to go and even change the community. So, for me, I see myself in five years as a top vegan. As a top promoter of veganism and animal rights. A top advocate. That's what I want. I want to see Uganda at least by maybe 2030, when we are having maybe 40%. Because right now we don't make even 5, we don't make 5 in our country. so I want to, maybe 2030, to see that the number are increasing. Starting from schools, to the community, to worldwide. You get? Because if it's successful in Uganda, then you can move to Kenya, you can over to Tanzania, you can move to South Africa. Because even I think South Africa is the biggest here. South Africa is the best country in Africa to have many vegans. They are many. We have less. And then it’s tough to do the job. For message to go nationally, and then worldwide.

HOST: How important is it for you is to be active on social media, or how much does that help you, do you think? Because you're really, really good on Linked In. 

JULIUS: So I have mostly focused on Linked In. Now Linked In has helped me in the way that, I’ve been visible, to the world. I've made many vegan friends. I've met many inspirations. I've met many advisors, on Linked In. And it has helped me to grow in experience as a person, because whatever I can't do, I talk to someone who I think knows it better. So I get an advice. So, I've been seen worldwide and people are appreciating my work. And thank you so much to everyone who appreciates my work. Everyone who supports us. Everyone who is there for us every time we need them. Thank you so much, I truly appreciate people who are kind and, what they call it, generosity. People are generous. You find them worldwide. You never know. Because in your own country, you might fail to find support. But if you can get support from the world, then it's such a nice thing.

HOST (Voiceover): Julius understands that people may not be able to offer financial support but he suggests that they think about unwanted equipment they may have that could be donated to the cause. In order to give talks and presentations or to document their projects, they need equipment like phones, video recorders, projectors and microphones and these expenses can build up if you have to hire them out each time.  

JULIUS: Now, that's a big challenge because hiring something is expensive than having your own. Like how they say, cheap things are expensive. You can buy maybe a phone of maybe $15 but then in 2 months it's done and then you have to buy another one. So that cheap phone is becoming expensive again, you get? So it's now the same thing as we do. Hiring things cost us a lot, because we don't have our own. For me, actually, not all help comes from money. Or support comes from money. Some people don't have that money. But at least they have something they don't use. I'm sure. Some people have projectors at home they don't use. Some people have phones, maybe it's old one for him or her, they just keep it. Some people have cameras. So, for me, my request, was, - and it's a humble request - if you have something that you see can help up in our advocacy. Maybe you have a camera at home that you don't use. You can communicate to us and say Julius, I have a camera, tell me your address. Then you send it, we use it. Because not everyone has the money but at least someone has something that he doesn't use, or she.  But most importantly, is coming together, to help each other. Because when I say, now we need $2,000 to complete our first phase of Aqua Bloom Uganda, but then if you don't have that money. But then you remember, oh, I have a camera at home, let me send it to them, it will help them capture...because when you saw our photos, there aren't that much of a quality. Because our gadgets are too cheap. They don't produce the best thing. But of course, we want to make a documentary from this project, after it's done. Totally done. We want to make a documentary. But a documentary is better when everything is clear. When you have quality photos, quality videos. But then we don't have that. So it's a challenge. So, for me, my humble request is, you can send us thing that you don't use. A phone, a camera, a projector, you can send it to us. Even you can say, Julius, instead of money, maybe branding shirt. Because now, you see, this is the shirt we use.

HOST: Yes.

JULIUS: Aqua Bloom. So, this shirt costs a lot, one shirt. Costs a lot. But remember, you want at least some good shirts for your members and even shirts you maybe sell through the project. Because when you find maybe someone, you talk to him, then you need to give him something. You give him a shirt, you can put on this one. You get? They need them. They're expensive. But someone says, Julius, no, because of that I can maybe get you a machine, that maybe does the thing, branding. So many things are there that maybe people can help with. There's volunteering. Someone can say, now Julius, for me, I can't give you money, I can't give anything but I can donate to help share your content. This is in that category. To share your content, maybe I can open for you a GoFundMe, on your behalf? There are many, many, many, many ways to support. As long as you see that we are having the same goals. We are having the same mission for this world, then we can come together and make something that is moving forward.

HOST (Voiceover): An ever-increasing body of research indicates that the most environmentally friendly diet is a fully vegan one. Animal agriculture is the leading driver of deforestation, pollution, biodiversity loss and water use; and is linked to significant emission output. Veganism can also be seen as a call for racial justice because animal farming is the major cause of climate change and those most harmed by climate change are communities of colour. Animal agriculture threatens Uganda’s food security directly. According to the Atlas Vegan community school: Vegan organic agriculture can yield over 40 times more food per acre than animal-based agriculture. Knowing all this it was natural that I would ask Julius about his experience of climate change.

HOST: Do you feel, is there a strong effect of climate change in Uganda? I know the weather is changing here in Ireland and people are talking about climate change more than they did 5 years ago. Is there effects in Uganda?

JULIUS: Totally. Totally. Too much. Even our seasons are changing here, yes. But because of what? Deforestation, pollution, global warming. So, things are totally changing in Uganda. Even, I remember, there's a colleague of mine, is called Mike. He's the founder of Atlas Vegan Community School, the first vegan school in Uganda. He talked about it. Was giving in a petition to the government. Like, why don't they stop carrying out deforestation? Because what we are going through now...right now we are having a lot of floods. As I talk. Floods are everywhere. Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania. Long ago, these trees used to hold that water. But now they are nowhere to be seen. So water just pass through. Many people have been killed through floods. Since now it's raining a lot, in our country. So whenever, even right now when we are carrying out our project, you find out that water levels are too high.

HOST: Oh wow.

JULIUS: You get? So you are at the risk. And even the people around the lakes are at the risk of that. So things are changing totally. Climate change is really, really here. More. Global warming. Global warming is too much.  

HOST (Voiceover): Julius explained the problems facing people whose livelihood depends on animal agriculture and he mentions one success story of a man who transitioned to fully plant-based farming after they had talked.  

JULIUS: And of course, animal agriculture in Uganda is the same as maybe fishing. It's economic purpose. So if I have someone rearing, maybe, hens. Now, all of them are going to be sold. So how I can tell that person to stop what you are doing, because of climate change. They won't listen. I let that person think a lot. Who cares about the world. Or the planet. Even if you come in a humble way, you try to explain to them: they just look and say, oh man, don't tell me your shit. You get? But of course, for me, I'm used to being embarrassed. I just move on. You get? But of course some listen. They give me that time to listen. You explain, they listen. But as I say, people are looking for survival. If you have someone who is a butcher. Now asking him, why do you need to slaughter this cow?  They are like, man, I'm sorry but this is what I have to do. I have to feed my family. I have to do, to pay school fees. So, some people will even make me, I feel like, I feel sorrow. I feel like...someone explains to you his point of view and you just understand and you just have to leave him or her. Because if you can't help him or her, like give him an alternative where he can get money from, then what else can you do? You have to just leave them. But of course some change. There's a man was called Jonah. Jonah was a man who used to slaughter, for him he used to slaughter only goats. Only goats. But then he had a farm, no, he had a garden. He used to plant banana. He has the banana plantation. Then I talk to him, I told him, Jonah, right now, you are slaughtering goats to survive. But for me, in my humble opinion, I don't think you're surviving on these goats. Because you could have a land full of banana plantation. Because one bunch here in Uganda, is expensive, one bunch. So I told him, instead of continuing to kill these goats for meat, to sell them, you can focus more on your garden. You can even put alternatives. You can say, now I have my banana plantation, then you grow some watermelons somewhere, you grow pineapple somewhere, to cover up this, ah, the money you have been getting from the goats. As I talk now, he's one of the best producers, to produce watermelons here, in our community.

HOST: Wow, yes.

JULIUS:  Because he got an alternative in our community.

HOST: That's amazing. So I'm really happy to see that you do that, you are patient and dedicated and just keep going.

JULIUS: Patience is something great in life. I don't think there's anyone successful who is not patient. I don't think so. Because right now, I may fail to get an alternative for someone who, because there are some people who can't find that. They only focus on killing animals for survival. They don't have anything else. They don't have, maybe, side business, they don't have. They just have a butcher. So, right now, I can't have alternatives for those people because I am not financially stable to start maybe businesses for them. I cannot afford that. But the more time you be thinking, the more you get ideas. Now you never know in time I will come up, I will say, I've got an alternative for this ____ who don't have what to do else. It was easier for me to change Mr. Jonah because for him he had an alternative, he had a garden. I just gave him some ideas that can cover the money he used to get from slaughtering goats. But what I know is always patience. You be patient as you're coming up with ideas and alternatives. And everything will be good. Yes. 

HOST: I think, my idea or my feeling is that in 20 years time, you will be very well know, very important in the vegan world, so I thought, I will talk to him now, when he is at the beginning, it's very exciting. But I really believe in 20 years, Julius Kirumira will be a very famous person in protecting the planet, in protecting animals, I think your name will be very...will be...

JULIUS (laughing): Thank you so much for those kind words.  I appreciate it. It's also a great goal for me, as I say. I want to be that person who has made a change, starting from my local community, to my country, then to the world. Because I believe that any success comes from your origin. Successfulness starts from here, in Uganda. You first conquer your country, very well, you did everything right, and then you can go do it, maybe, in other countries. So my goal, I personally, is to be that. I want to first protect the animals, protect the planet, make it good for the people. So it's a goal for me, and I call for support from people. Call upon people support me. Because no one is successful alone. Everything is done with a group of people. If you want to be selfish and do anything alone, you won't succeed. But if you come together, and push it forward, then everything's right and everything will be successful. So I call upon for support from different people. For us, we are open. For any collaboration, partnerships, as long as we are sharing the same goals and all of us want to protect the animals and then the planet.

HOST (Voiceover): To finish up I asked Julius about his own interactions with animals these days, since, as you’ve heard, he constantly expresses such love and compassion for them.

HOST:  Do you get...do you get joy now from friendships with animals? I know you don't have Max but do you see animals in your life?

JULIUS: I don't see enough animals. Because where I study from, I don't see anyone who has a dog or cat. I just see them on the streets. Of course when I saw on the streets, if I have time, I call them. Some of them, they don't fear people. They come, you be there with it, then it goes. So I don't see much of them. Because...I would have, but even I wanted to have one as me, here at school, but I can't afford feeding it. I can't afford it. Every money I get, goes on projects. I don't have that money to go an buy...you get? Because for us, every money we get, project; every money we get, project. So there's no time. And even, I can't afford it. Personally, to feed a dog. Because when, sometimes me myself, I sleep hungry. I sleep empty stomach. So how can you have a dog when even sometimes, you don't have what to eat. So that's a challenge. But I would like to get another Max. Because I really miss dogs. I really miss Max. But I know one time, when everything is good, I will have one. I will have one and we being together. But for now, I don't see a lot of dogs, cats. Farm animals? I see them but of course...actually, I didn't talk about this. Farm animals here are always, let me say kidnapped, or stolen. Because these people are butchers. They see it as an opportunity. Now you can find a pig on the bush. So he can try every way to steal that pig. Because it has no one. People think that there are only stray dogs or cats. My idea, there are even stray farm animals. And there are many. People just killing them, to slaughter them for money. So they are many here. So, my humble request is that, let's not create some isolation. People focus more on dogs and cats. But for me, in my opinion, these are all animals. These are all animals. Protect them. Protect the pig. Protect the cow. But you find some people, they only find dogs and cats are the only animals. So if you can't eat your dog, why you go eat the cow? Why? If you can't eat your cat, then don't even eat the pig. It doesn't make sense. Or, that's injustice. You get? So, for me, my humble request to the people, to the world, protect everything. Protect everything. Don't just protect one. Because, because they have not just expressed the love that others have. You may find out that even this pig loves too, too much. But you only know the love of a dog. But even these other animals have love. You just need to bring them closer to you, they understand you, then you will see that love I'm talking about. So, for me, it's better to protect all of them. Like, on this project - Aqua Bloom - I think they don't think that helping fish is a crucial idea. But why? Fish is also an animal. So why would you want to protect dogs, then don't want to protect fish? Why? I don't know. But it's difficult for us because, one thing is that, people find it that, investing their money in a project that protects marine life, is nonsense.

HOST: Ah.

JULIUS: We try to talk to them. They say now, why would you protect fish, why? Now we say, you really care about animals. Some people just say that they are vegan, but deep down, they are not. They just love dogs. They just love dogs, they just love casts. But they don't love animals in general. But they say, I'm an animal lover. Why you don't like fish? Why? Some things have to change. If you can help a dog, why not the fish? Why? Because these things are suffocating in there. They are putting nets in lakes, they suffocate them.  Now, imagine a scenario where, you are in your house, because your house is your habitat. Then dogs invade you. They come too many, they enter your house, they start barking at you, maybe biting you? How do you feel? It's the same way how these fish feel. If you come in the morning, put in your nets and start pulling them out. It's the same thing. My idea is, let's not isolate. Let's not discriminate. If you can help a dog, a cat, then you have to help a fish, a cow, a pig, anything; so long as it's an animal. Protect it.

HOST (Voiceover): One thing that is so wonderful about the vegan advocacy movement is that it brings people together from all walks of life and transcends other potential barriers like religion, politics or race as everyone is united by the common experience of love for animals and the common goal of wanting to help them.

I really enjoyed talking to Julius and, as I said to him, I look forward to watching his influence spread in the coming decades. It was a bit like having a chance to talk to a young Jane Goodall or Ed Winters – to meet someone so full of drive and determination and showing such a deep feeling of compassion for all life.

You can find out more about his work at veganplanetafrica.org and connect with him on LinkedIn.

I hope you enjoyed hearing his story and I’m sure you’ll join me in watching his progress with delight.

Thank you so much for listening and I’ll see you next time. 

(music playing, fades out).